Why Broken Trust is Bad for Business

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Welcome to the wellbeing, rebellion, the

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podcast that's changing workplace cultures for good.

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We're your hosts in Ghazi Wella,

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and obey telephoto.

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Let's get this rebellion started. We talked a lot about

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trust in the episode we did about how you foster

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psychological safety in the workplace. And it came up

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recently, when we attended the D TX conference in Manchester. And

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I was on the panel. And it was a panel on is workforce is

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workplace well being the key to a successful workforce in 2023.

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And it was a great panel was a wonderful event. I did not know

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the DGX. Manchester was the largest tech conference in in

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the north, I think. And it was phenomenal. And I was joined on

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stage by some incredible panelists, there were reps from

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and these are senior bigwigs from Kellogg's from infinity

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works and beauty Bay. And the topic was really relevant and

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the audience. Normally when you do these panels, audiences don't

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ask that many questions. But this time, the audience had a

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lot to talk about workforce wellbeing and whether it's the

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key to the success of the future of work. But one question that

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was really challenging, in fact, there were two. And they were

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from two different perspectives on the same topic. So we I

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thought we should talk about it was this thing about trust? And

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what happens when it breaks? Right? So the question was, for

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one person, what happens when employees don't trust their

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managers and leaders? And then someone else asked about, you

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know, what happens when employees take advantage of the

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organization's generosity in supporting them with their

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mental well being efforts and use it as an excuse to be lazy

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or work shy? So yeah, it was also about how do you go about

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rebuilding trust? So this trust issue is one that people

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understand now that they have to grapple with both individually

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and corporately? And so we thought it was something that

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was worth us talking about? Because at least answering

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the question, because, yeah, when you're on a panel, and

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people have questions to answer it, and then everybody, the

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panel would have to add bits and bobs. But it'd be nice to

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actually just almost like, respond fully. What we would

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normally have said, if we didn't have time restraint, that makes

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sense. So that was, so I think the first question that I wanted

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to, to answer

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is the personal one, about employees who have, who have

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experienced a breach of trust, who've been hurt. So I can't

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even break confidence because I don't know this person's name.

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She had worked for a previous company, had had suffered,

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having told her managers about her mental wellbeing concerns.

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And their response was much less than favorable. I don't know

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what the company was. We didn't know

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anything about that. But clearly it worked in tech. But the words

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he was asking, was that what do you do? What is how can you see

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an employee? What could you have done differently? Because her

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issue was I told them, what was going on with me? And they acted

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like they didn't believe me, I would lie. And what did that

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leave? Where did that leave her basically? So it can interesting

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to ponder, what did the employee do when that happened to them?

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Before the organization? What can you do when an employee

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who's either left or actually doesn't feel the contract the

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manager to your leaders to support them in their time of

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need? Okay, you could have two perspective, one for the

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employee himself, and two, for the organization. When you have

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employees like the saying that they're not happy, or they're

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not listening to openly by their leader and manager. What can you

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do about that?

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Okay, so for an employee, it's a very personal thing, first of

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all, to have the courage to say, I'm really struggling this thing

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is not easy. I know from firsthand experience, I wouldn't

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tell anybody at work because of the fear that they would say,

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well, that's just because you're crap, or that they wouldn't

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believe me, or that it'd be held against me all the things that

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we've talked about previous episodes that stop people from

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coming forward. I didn't tell a single soul. I just didn't show

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up for work when I got signed off. That's it. So the fact that

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if you come across An employee who has had the confidence, or

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is either that desperate courage, the courage Yeah, that

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they have been able to tell you, as a manager, that they're going

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through a difficulty, doesn't know what strength that took,

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it's very, very difficult if you if you do that if you take that

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deep personal risk, and then you're met with either apathy or

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even worse, a lack of belief, if that happens to you, certain

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things will happen. First of all, you will never risk

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exposing yourself like that to that individual or possibly even

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to anyone in that organization ever again. Because you have you

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as the manager has just proven that they're not safe to do so.

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And to, they then will likely not be able to get the help that

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they need. So the problem will exacerbate My advice to you if

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this is you going through this is, first of all well done, for

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telling someone as the kill kidsave for speaking your truth.

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Well done. And I am very sorry that you weren't met with the

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kind of grace and compassion that you should have been, or

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that you weren't given an effective avenue for support and

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help. It is not your fault. likely it is not your fault,

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right? So don't stop being brave. Just find someone who

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just deserves that courage. And if that's not in your workplace,

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find it outside,

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you know, other workloads. I think that's a good point there.

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Also, if it's not your actual manager, because I'd like to

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think if I'm, if I was speaking to her on the side, and two came

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up, it took me one on one on the side, I forgot what are say,

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your manager did not believe you what the next How do you

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escalate it, who's the next person that you could tell? It

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could be another manager from another department, it could be

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the money manager, it could be HR. So just a question of what

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are the procedures and for organization, you should have a

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procedures for this. If a manager is not doing what's

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required, what to can employ you do neck with the next person

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they can talk to, or who that person they can talk to, if

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they're not getting what they require. So that's one. And the

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second thing I would have been asking about access to her EAP

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she's access to mentors, you know what they are, and what

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offers to see, qualify for any of those things. I've been

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coding, let's go and check them out. And if t an encoding her to

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you them based on what you offer it, that do not be afraid to do

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is to consider external support lockdown or coat of dental

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therapy would depend on what's going on firm for them. So that

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they can think about you and only you know the word, you are

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the priority, you come first. So that way you have opportunity to

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think about what you need, what you need for your career, what

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lifestyle, you're looking for all of that stuff and makes it

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about you in a way that you may not have that confidence with

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your manager to discuss it. And clearly, if trust had been

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broken in this way where they don't believe you or think

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you're lying, I wouldn't be trying to encourage them to go

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back and talk to that manager about their future planning.

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That's not something I'd want to include. Because I don't want

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them to feel even more unsafe than the data we say, if a

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company no longer feels right for an individual, right? If

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you've not worked out, this is not the right place for me, I

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don't feel safe here, give or take whatever departments I'm

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going to be, then I'm going to encourage this person who asked

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me to figure out how she can safely exit from this

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organization, people get worse when they're not being supported

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at work, they feel less motivated. Dado is not helpful

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to her or the organization really. So it's in her best

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interest to figure out how you can safely exit from a company

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to somewhere else where she can be more herself and get lost in

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it. But what I will be encoding when that time comes for her to

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leave to be honest, and kind about why is she leaving during

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the exit interview. If they exit interviews, they should be if

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your organization don't have one, you should definitely have

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one for every employee who hides in there notice because that

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will give her opportunity to let the organization know the real

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reason why she left the support she had or didn't have any

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recommendation district to make them no longer her business

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anymore. But I wondered if she does that then say Oh, I got a

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different job. Different pay. I'm gonna be honest about what

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it was that contributed to it. Well, the key thing that I

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always say to Hey Charlie did I And I always said, people who

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have mental health issues or struggles, or whatever it is,

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and physical health issues, they will eventually get well, right?

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Eventually, they'll get well, they'll figure themselves out,

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they'll get treatment, whatever. But they will never forget how

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you treated them, how you supported them. And if you

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didn't support them appropriately, or well, they

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will actively look for a way to leave. Today already seen what

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you like, if other people have watched them go through this,

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what them struggle, what how their managers responded to

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them, they also know that it's not a place I can trust, either.

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And they will be seeking to leave. Because when people don't

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feel safe in their space, when they attend, they spend a lot of

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energy, trying to figure out how to get themselves safe with me

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constantly working their back all of that stuff. So that's

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what I wanted to, to wrap up that what I would have to say to

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an individual person who is struggling, we get this all the

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time. We're psychologist and coach. So therefore, I will have

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individual people asking for support because their HR isn't

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providing that for the organization. It's not providing

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that they could do exactly the strategy are we getting them to

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do? We wanted to share that with you all?

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Great. So that answers the individuals question about what

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do I do? Because they didn't help me the answer and summaries

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continue to get help pursue that because you deserve. You deserve

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to feel well continue to pursue all avenues available to you for

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help go up if you must go around if you can go external, but get

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the help. But then there's the point of view of the company,

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the company, what does a company do or an organization or a

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leader do if they feel that they're, they are providing that

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kind of level of support, the psychological safety, all of the

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things as it said, but their employees are taking the mick

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and are using their generosity as an excuse not to work or to

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shirk. Now, we get this question a lot less so nowadays, I must

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admit, but in the first few years, people would say but if

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you're doing this, if you're if you're always showing them that

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you care, and you're showing the soft side, then they'll just

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take the mick, which is a very old school approach is a very

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paternalistic approach to how you view the employer employee

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relationship. Yeah, but the truth is, as I said, always,

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always focus your attention where you're going to get the

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most reward. Why would you focus on the tiny fraction of people

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who may take advantage of your mental health support, which

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might be 1%? Even if it's 10%? Why would you take to focus on

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how you can stop that from happening when you should be

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focusing on the bigger prize, the vast majority of people who

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have mental health concerns, under report, they don't access

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help, they don't take time off work. Only a small number of

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people, a tiny fraction of healthy employees will use the

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mental health excuse to stop them from doing work. Right?

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You're not trying to manage the worst performance, you're

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focusing your efforts on how you can bring the best performance

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out of your employees. So if someone brings up their mental

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health issues and concerns, believe them, it is 99% more

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likely that they're going to be telling the truth and a lie.

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Don't assume that it's just an easy cop out. If you can assume

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that they are telling the truth because you've created that

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environment of psychological safety and trust. If you assume

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that they're telling the truth, you have a good relationship,

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then assume that if they tell you that they can't manage their

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performance because of their mental health struggles, that

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they're telling the truth, the two are not mutually exclusive,

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right? Then recognize that this is going to have an impact not

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just on them, but on the wider team. You're going to have to do

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something to manage it. You can't just do it. They're there

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as the show Have you have you thought about calling the EP,

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you're gonna have to make sure this person gets help as quickly

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and effectively as possible because whilst They are not at

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their best, they are going to be underperforming. And that's what

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we call them well being black hole, one person is affected.

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Everyone sees what your response is to that, it's generally to

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divide the workload amongst the remaining members of staff who

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are fully operational, it will, it will reduce their

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productivity. But if you also, another element of the well

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being black hole is, if you view the way you're treating this

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individual as something that's not private, between you and

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them, it's visible to everybody. Everybody's going to see how you

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respond to employ X, when they came to you with their problem,

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and decide whether or not they can truly, truly trust you with

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this. So make sure that you know that you're on show and what it

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whatever you do from that point onward, will either grow or

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erode the trust that you have between yourself and your

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employees

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will not get the unacknowledged. Exactly. To be fat. I'm going to

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be very honest, when I hear this question, we hear it a lot, who

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says what do you do when employees are taking advantage?

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I know for a fact that your managers have not been trained,

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I know that for a fact, I can almost set the clock on it. In

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other words, there is no way a fully transformational train

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manager would assume that if they did, because this person

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already had history of mid case, you're looking at about one

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content about one person or two people. When if you be concerned

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about the majority of people who do their work and want to do

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well. So they didn't want it to something comes up because they

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don't know how to train them. They assume that if someone even

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had mental health issue, that is an excuse to an opportunity to

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execute poor performance. It's not really it's possible to

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support somebody with mental health, at the same time

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performance manage them, because performance management isn't a

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punitive exercise, I think the idea we think it is. So this is

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why it's always clear to me, when managers say that the tools

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are going to take the player to because they think saying I'm

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not I got mental health issue and giving you carte blanche to

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not do your work or show up. That's not true at all. You can

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learn how to do boat, you can learn how to be empathetic to

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someone's mental health, make sure to get treatment, and make

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sure that you have at the manager agreed that scope of

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work that this person is going to be doing based on their work

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going on with them based on whether or not they're getting

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treatment or not getting treatment based on what they've

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agreed with the team and how the team is going to help out. This

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is very clear to me when someone said somebody taking the pill

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just for taking the pill state that they haven't been trained

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properly. So if you get I'd hate to get managers coming to you

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saying that, Oh my god, I think the people are ordered mental

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health issues causing issues. People are just not wanting to

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work. You know, you have a training problem. Indicator. You

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know what you think about that?

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Me and my damn ADHD I can't remember the really great point

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that you've you just made, which was you were saying that if

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people come to you saying that, Oh, yeah, all this mental health

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stuff is there they're taking the piss. One reason might be

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because people do often think like, I guess I am talking about

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the old school. They think well, you know, bloody out there was

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no mental health before now everybody's off sick. Sandra's

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obviously, that's the well being black hole. So even if they're

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saying, you know, it was one person on the team now it's 10.

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It's ridiculous. Oh my gosh, it might be because it's the well

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being black hole, which is, like I said, the impact the knock on

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impact of one person's illness or productive incapacity on

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everybody else, which increases their own stress levels. Or it

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might be because you're doing such a good job creating

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psychological safety, that people who are hiding it before

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are now able to speak up about the fact that they're

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struggling, and they need support. And it might be short

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term pain for a very, very much bigger long term gain. But yet

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people don't take the piss with telling you that they're going

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through mental ill health. And if you've created a truly open

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culture based on trust, based on mutual respect, based on an

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adult adult relationship, you'll know when they're taking the

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piss simple, but then how can you tell OB if your employees

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don't trust their leaders? So the people who are listening are

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good audience are in fact, in HR or in senior management? How do

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you know if you haven't got a good level of trust between your

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managers and their staff?

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Yeah, I'm gonna say first and it behavior so what are people

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doing? What are you seeing? I mean, we'll talk about country

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office now, right? So two, three days a week people are doing

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that. All of a sudden, people are often uncomfortable coming

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back into the office just started doing it. And finally

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suddenly or not, that might be one, the gossip by the

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watercooler what's happening when people say in when people

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go off sick, what? What is the? What are they saying about them

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after they've been sick, right? When to when they've been off

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sick for free to help your organization to send flowers and

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cart when someone's off for mental health care nothing, why

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the person come back and look like we had leprosy. That's why

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the left is the weirdest feeling. So those are the

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example your toes you we don't trust, you go out of the office

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and be ill for physical health, but not mental health is to what

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one in that. One thing I would say, if you also have complaint

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include complaint, so gone from like a case of that lady saying

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that the manager didn't believe her, then she might have got

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escalated it to HR to say, Listen, I've got this thing, and

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my manager wouldn't help. If you're getting more that more

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complaint of the same manager, maybe the same department that

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gives you an indicator as well. And also your surveys. So if you

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do post obeys, and frankly, to be fair, if your organization is

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one that it already, people want to audit trust issue, you may

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not get a clear picture if you send a survey, but at least the

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back and do nothing. So send a survey, make those anonymous,

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right? And ask very specific question about trust and whether

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or not I talked to my manager to support me, I can escalate

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things, if I have issues, I'm actively looking to leave the

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organization, Mike, you can ask very specific questions that

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anonymous could have people can tell you what you need to know.

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So that's kind of ideal in terms of behavioral or something that

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you're gonna have to see or hear. But I for what one is

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feeling inside, you can't possibly or less to ask them.

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So to round up, assume your employees are lying to you, when

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they say they need help. Assume you do need to continue to build

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on the psychological safety that exists within your teams and

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your organization. Because you genuinely always do assume that

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your managers need to continually learn how to be

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better people, managers in terms of creating and cultivating

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trust between their employees and, and assume that they don't

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just know this stuff by osmosis, but they need your support

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through training and education. If that trust is broken, it

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takes a long time to restore it, it's gonna take more walking the

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walk and talking the talk, right?

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Yeah, I think once the truck is broken in organization, it would

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have a knock on effect from things on lower engagement, high

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turnover, reduced innovation, it just so you have to be prepared

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to allow time for that to happen. Okay. And for one of the

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questions that actually we didn't talk about it, one with

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what happened when someone has come from a different

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organization. So they the last organization wasn't quite up to

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par, they didn't trust them to come into your organization

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having some level of lack of trust, because you're not sure

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like based on past experiences, which is why is it important

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when new people join your team, you need to be able to share

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with them about what you're doing, how you're helping to

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build trust, how they can come to who they can go to talk to

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about thing, just to help them to let them have that baggage

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that you might have come with from another organization to be

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able to let them know, let that get that light, load lighter. So

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that way, they can start to form relationship with a new team,

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new manager, and don't bring old baggage into a new organization.

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But that's the reason why we think it's important that worker

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safety because that account for new people joining your

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organizations or teams.

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To round off, I'm gonna end this episode with a quote, because

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everything we've talked about reminded me of my favorite

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American author Maya Angelou. And that famous quote that she

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had, I've learned that people will forget what you said,

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people will forget what you did. But people will never forget how

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you made them feel. loved that. Yeah, that's what it's about.

Unknown: 00:24:24

All right. Thank you. We'll see you next time next time. Thanks

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for listening to this episode of The wellbeing rebellion.

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If you liked what you just heard, please share it with your

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colleagues. Follow us on LinkedIn. The link could be in

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the show notes and genuinely show us some love.

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We want to build a whole army of fellow rebels who want to create

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positive workplaces for everyone. Will you join the